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Will promised recruitment of thousands more front line gardai hobble long overdue civilianisation of admin jobs?

patslatt

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Will promised recruitment of thousands more front line gardai hobble long overdue civilianisation of admin jobs?

The Irish Times expects that the next government will recruit thousands more front line gardai, which no doubt would please the public and especially those in rural areas who feel under siege from by a wave of burglaries.

As a tradeoff, the government should make two important demands on the gardai. First,the practice of rostering the same number of gardai on duty on low crime monday nights as on high crime friday and saturday nights should cease. A demand to treat this as a bargaining issue over pay and conditions should not be countenanced for a second.

Second,gardai numbers should be increased only as more jobs in garda administration and management are given to civilians,otherwise civilianisation of admin jobs will be hobbled. The Garda Inspectorate estimates that three thousand gardai could be reassigned to front line policing if their desk jobs were civilianised.

When Justice Minister McDowell began his civilianisation initiative, only about 10% of admin jobs were done by civilians, whereas in the UK the figure was 50% with plans to increase the numbers to 70% or more. Civilians have specialised skills they can bring to the gardai and they don't typically retire in their early fifties on full pensions like gardai. Despite these advantages, civilianisation has made little progress.
 


GDPR

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Makes sense that where feasible civilians should take over suitable admin duties and free gardai up to do the jobs they're trained and needed for.
 

freewillie

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While it makes sense to have extra Gardai on patrol on the busy weekend nights it is also important that an adequate level of policing is visible on other nights particularly n rural areas to intercept travelling criminals. Patrolling and increased visibility is important. Its not all about detection. Prevention is better
 

Nemesiscorporation

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While it makes sense to have extra Gardai on patrol on the busy weekend nights it is also important that an adequate level of policing is visible on other nights particularly n rural areas to intercept travelling criminals. Patrolling and increased visibility is important. Its not all about detection. Prevention is better
Most crime where I live is in evenings mid week.
 

BACKTOBASICS

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Most crime where I live is in evenings mid week.
People usually at work Monday to Friday, and at home all day at weekends. Also, sons/daughters studying or working away return for the weekend, meaning more numbers around - even dim-witted criminals know that.
 

OrderoftheDragon

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The only things that happens on fri/sat night is public order, this does not effect most people as others have pointed out. The only effect of civilianisation will be to reduce the no. of gardai because there is never extra money in the pot, every extra civilian post is one less garda.

These "desk" gardai are often used when required, Obama, Queen, Easter Commerations etc etc.
 

patslatt

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The only things that happens on fri/sat night is public order, this does not effect most people as others have pointed out. The only effect of civilianisation will be to reduce the no. of gardai because there is never extra money in the pot, every extra civilian post is one less garda.

These "desk" gardai are often used when required, Obama, Queen, Easter Commerations etc etc.
Deskbound gardai are unlikely to have the fitness levels or the inclination needed for front line policing. Most gardai on those desk jobs which would be suited for civilians lack the experience that civilians could bring to the job in computers, business management, personnel management, public relations etc
 

GabhaDubh

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Makes sense that where feasible civilians should take over suitable admin duties and free gardai up to do the jobs they're trained and needed for.
Cannot see civilization of the Gardai staffing for the following simple reasons, it would lead openness and transparency and sadly our force is not known for those qualities.
 

patslatt

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Cannot see civilization of the Gardai staffing for the following simple reasons, it would lead openness and transparency and sadly our force is not known for those qualities.
FEAR OF GARDAI?

Why doesn't the government insist on civilianisation? Fear of the gardai?
 

Aindriu

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Deskbound gardai are unlikely to have the fitness levels or the inclination needed for front line policing. Most gardai on those desk jobs which would be suited for civilians lack the experience that civilians could bring to the job in computers, business management, personnel management, public relations etc
If they don't reach the fitness standard then get rid! There is absolutely no space for wastrels and dead wood. Either they are fully fit or they go.
I disagree with your comment re civvies too. They have been at the front end of admin tasks of all kinds and customer relations on the front desks for years in the UK without issue.
 

ruserious

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I believe the civilianisation program of immigration and passport control has been seen as a massive success. Might learn something from that.
 

Roll_On

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Having civilians, i.e. people outside the command structure of the gardaí, in these administrative roles would make it next to impossible for gardaí to cancel politician's penalty points.

It'd also make it difficult/impossible for the gardaí to make files go missing when they need to go missing, breathaliser results, witness statements etc. If it makes corruption more difficult there will be staunch resistance.

At present there is no gardaí presence at all in the centre of our capital, they are all out on the national roads checking tax discs. They only come into Dublin to abuse their power, driving in bus lanes/tram tracks, tripple parking at Pearse Street station. None of these abuses can accommodate a bunch of civillian witnesses about the place.
 

locke

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I believe the civilianisation program of immigration and passport control has been seen as a massive success. Might learn something from that.
And ironically, it probably wasn't the place to start.

Civilianizing the Radio Control Room is probably the easiest win. There's very little benefit in having gardai doing that job, yet they are still people who have gone through the full training and who get garda salaries and pensions doing it.

Of course, we'll muck it up if we do it, as we'll surely create a centralized civilian call-centre, with people based 300km away from the call they are receiving who don't have a clue where something is being reported, never mind how to spell it.
 

Roll_On

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Of course, we'll muck it up if we do it, as we'll surely create a centralized civilian call-centre, with people based 300km away from the call they are receiving who don't have a clue where something is being reported, never mind how to spell it.
GPS tracing of phone calls, phone operator then transmits the coordinates of the incident or the eircode of the relevant property to the local gardaí's route planner. It's 2016 after all. The national ambulance service is currently centralised in Tallaght and works better than it did 20 years ago when the 'locals' where debating over which boreen was which.
 

patslatt

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If they don't reach the fitness standard then get rid! There is absolutely no space for wastrels and dead wood. Either they are fully fit or they go.
I disagree with your comment re civvies too. They have been at the front end of admin tasks of all kinds and customer relations on the front desks for years in the UK without issue.
Ireland's very low level of civilianisation compares unfavourably with the UK's high level, as I wrote.
 

patslatt

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And ironically, it probably wasn't the place to start.

Civilianizing the Radio Control Room is probably the easiest win. There's very little benefit in having gardai doing that job, yet they are still people who have gone through the full training and who get garda salaries and pensions doing it.

Of course, we'll muck it up if we do it, as we'll surely create a centralized civilian call-centre, with people based 300km away from the call they are receiving who don't have a clue where something is being reported, never mind how to spell it.
RADIO CONTROL ROOM
I assume this is the emergency phone number 999. Experience of front line policing would be a massive advantage for operators in handling serious emergencies. Less serious calls could be diverted by garda operators to civilian call centre operators. An important issue for civilianisation is the percentage of calls that are serious emergencies needing a rapid garda response.
 

patslatt

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GPS tracing of phone calls, phone operator then transmits the coordinates of the incident or the eircode of the relevant property to the local gardaí's route planner. It's 2016 after all. The national ambulance service is currently centralised in Tallaght and works better than it did 20 years ago when the 'locals' where debating over which boreen was which.
The Irish ambulance service is constantly seriously late in comparison to NI and Scotland with similar geography, according to a rural TD who quoted facts and figures. Maybe communications are not responsible.
 

freewillie

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RADIO CONTROL ROOM
I assume this is the emergency phone number 999. Experience of front line policing would be a massive advantage for operators in handling serious emergencies. Less serious calls could be diverted by garda operators to civilian call centre operators. An important issue for civilianisation is the percentage of calls that are serious emergencies needing a rapid garda response.
Control room duties would be suitable for Gardai who are seriously injured on duty and would not be fit for street duties. It would be better than leaving them retire on health grounds as they would still be in full employment and younger Guards wouldnt be sitting at control desks
 


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