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Will Shatter allow a EU discussion on Free Movement ?


Telemachus

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EU member states raise immigration concerns with Irish presidency - European News | Latest News from Across Europe | The Irish Times - Fri, Apr 26, 2013

Four EU member states have written to Minister for Justice and Home Affairs Alan Shatter requesting that the free movement of workers within the European Union is discussed at June’s meeting of justice and home affairs ministers

In a letter seen by the Irish Times the home affairs ministers of Britain, the Netherlands, Germany and Austria point out that “a significant number of new immigrants draw social assistance in the host countries, frequently without a genuine entitlement, burdening the host countries’ social welfare systems”.

This is putting a strain on essential services in some countries, particularly in the area of schooling, healthcare and accommodation, the letter argues.

“Arrangements at national or EU level that allow those who have only recently arrived in a member state and have never been employed or paid taxes there to claim the same social security benefits as that member state’s own citizens are an affront to common sense and ought to be reviewed urgently,” it continues.
Only last week it was reported that a new social housing development with units costing €230K each to build(complete with high tech solar panel systems) ended up with more than half of the properties going to foreign nationals.

Shatter has before sensibly resisted moves to allow asylum seekers to work explaining that such a move increases the numbers of people applying for asylum. What he said at the time was very interesting.

Ireland out of step with Europe in treatment of asylum seekers - Nasc - Social Affairs & News from Ireland & Abroad | The Irish Times - Tue, Apr 02, 2013
“Extending the right to work to asylum seekers would almost certainly have a profoundly negative impact on application numbers, as was experienced in the aftermath of the July 1999 decision to do so,” he said.
“The immediate effect of that measure was a threefold increase in the average number of applications per month leading to a figure of 1,217 applications in December 1999 compared with an average of 364 per month for the period January to July 1999.
“Any change in public policy in this area would have to have regard to the very large numbers of people unemployed in this country,” he added.
Shatter seems to be saying here that protecting workers in Ireland is important.

I of course am concerned with the population replacement aspects of free movement but I have also shown there are significant savings to be made from reducing the handouts to foreign unemployed people living here.

I'm sure Minister Shatter will allow and facilitate the home secretaries throughout the EU discuss protective measures to insulate their respective working classes from wage deflation, unemployment and pressure on school and local services.:cool:
 

The OD

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As a beneficiary of being allowed to move freely in a scenario where anyone else would be left sitting in a Garda station for hours awaiting test results, I would hope so......
 

Analyzer

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If there is one thing that has become clear in the past fortnight, it is that there is a large grey unclear foggy area between what Shatter says, and what really goes on....
 

asset test

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It certainly is something that should be debated freely amongst the EU member states.

One point could be made, and that is that movers should be entitled to the level of support they would get in their own country, when they move to another.

Is that reasonable?
 

johnny365

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Giving the way Shatter is giving citizenship out like confetti he is the wrong man to lead a charge on this. We need some common sense restricting benefits and deporting non nationals who commit crime here would be a sensible start.
 

Telemachus

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It certainly is something that should be debated freely amongst the EU member states.

One point could be made, and that is that movers should be entitled to the level of support they would get in their own country, when they move to another.

Is that reasonable?
Or support until the amount you paid in tax runs out... a discussion is needed. The brits are talking about going their own way regardless. BBC News - UK faces European Court over benefits for EU nationals
 

Dame_Enda

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Enda Kenny's pre-GE policy to allow them to work? Certainly in 2007 I'm pretty sure it was.

Anyway this is one promise I'm glad FG broke. Shatter is right about the need to avoid asylum being used to gain employment here. In the context of a recession Irish jobs must be protected.

The govt should accede to the 4 countries' request for a debate on this issue. It's just a pity they didn't think of that before dreaming up freedom of movement in the first place. Nancy Pelosi, speaking on Obamacare, said 'we need to pass it to see what's in it'. The EU appear to be on something similar. :roll:
 

asset test

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Well, how many from high SW states move to low support states? I don't have any stats, but I would imagine it is low enough.

I'm talking about those without jobs and on good support in their own country, moving to another and claiming lower supports while jobseeking.
 

Porkypie

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If there is one thing that has become clear in the past fortnight, it is that there is a large grey unclear foggy area between what Shatter says, and what really goes on....
Heard today that a change in the EU constitution is needed before the 2014 EU elections. Schauble and Hollande also seem to agree. I wonder will Shatter try to side step the electorate now that he is standing on shaky ground. Also heard that the EU elections have been brought forward to May for some reason.
 

sport02

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From a few weeks ago.
About 400 young women are being trafficked into Ireland a year to take part in sham marriages while the Government has so far failed to close a loophole that allows the criminals organising them to go free.
Latvia, where many of the young women come from, has said the lack of co-operation from gardaí and Irish authorities is making the job of tackling the issue very difficult. 
Now the Council of Europe has asked Ireland to take urgent action to amend the law to include sham marriages as a form of exploitation and give the gardaí the powers they need to intervene in such cases.
https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/400-a-year-trafficked-for-sham-marriages-221367.html&ei=PI2aUYfOEYLE7AbFrIHABA&usg=AFQjCNFkH5ml6rPm6JJPZhi0xszQs-d-Wg

Shatter in the job more than two years and the Latvian authorities and council of europe are displeased with the inaction on the sham marriage luancy in Ireland. Latvian authorities describe us as sham marriage capital of europe. So I doubt Shatter will take the topic in the OP seriously.

Now if your looking for someone to jazz up citizenship ceremonies, roll out the red carpet, pop open the champers, dish out a ton of citizenships, rent out the convention centre, have Africa day in the splendour of Farmleigh house or just looking for African person of the year award for 2012 and yes 2013, well then Shatter is your man.
 

kvran

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The four member states haven't provided any evidence of welfare tourism.

Also access to social welfare is a matter of national competence. Ireland has the habitual residency requirement, so if people have evidence of non citizen abusing the welfare system and want to change it, our national Government is well within their power to do so.
 
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Dame_Enda

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I propose a treaty change along the following lines.

Instead of being entitled to the sw rates of the country of destination, a immigrant would only be entitled either to those of the country of origin, or else to a separate harmonised EU sw rate, possible based on an average of the 27 member countries rates. The former would largely eliminate welfare tourism, whereas the latter would significantly reduce it.

Irish jobless welfare recipients get as much money in one week as their Polish counterparts do in one month,
 

asset test

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@ sport02 (quotes not working right), is there any reason, apart from incompetence, or blinkered thinking...why the sham marriage thing is not being tackled?

It is bizarre really.
 

kvran

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I propose a treaty change along the following lines.

Instead of being entitled to the sw rates of the country of destination, a immigrant would only be entitled either to those of the country of origin, or else to a separate harmonised EU sw rate, possible based on an average of the 27 member countries rates. The former would largely eliminate welfare tourism, whereas the latter would significantly reduce it.

Irish jobless welfare recipients get as much money in one week as their Polish counterparts do in one month,
So your willing to give the competency to regulate that to the EU?

The current situation allows for EU citizens to continue receiving SW from their country of origin for a number of weeks, 4 - 6 I think, while job hunting (or at least that's the intention) in a second member state. The cost is to the country of origin not the second country.

Who can receive SW is the competence of the national Government.
 

Dame_Enda

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The four member states haven't provided any evidence of welfare tourism.

Also access to social welfare is a matter of national competence. Ireland has the habitual residency requirement, so if people have evidence of non citizen abusing the welfare system and want to change it, our national Government is well within their power to do so.
The fact 20% of our population on welfare is foreign-national, compared to 12% of the population could well constitute evidence - especially given their younger age profile than the population as a whole.
 

kvran

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The fact 20% of our population on welfare is foreign-national, compared to 12% of the population could well constitute evidence - especially given their younger age profile than the population as a whole.
It doesn't really, how many contributions have they made to PRSI? What comes under this definition of welfare? How many are married to Irish citizens? A younger age profile should only be positive as they're more likely to retrain and find jobs or emigrate and cost less in healthcare costs. So 20% of welfare receipients being non national doesn't equate with abuse.

That said if the state wanted to exclude these people they could, nothing in EU treaties, policy or regulation stopping them.
 

Dame_Enda

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Kvran why would they emigrate when our sw is miles more generous than that of their home countries? Some of them are supporting families back home and so could send sw back as remittances where it will go much further than in expensive Ireland.
 

yayo

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It doesn't really, how many contributions have they made to PRSI? What comes under this definition of welfare? How many are married to Irish citizens?.
Nonsensical questions posted to deflect. Immigrants, from Europe, are welcome here to work and pay their own way. Not to become a burden on the state. We should give non Irish nationals six months dole, tops, then offer a plane ticket.

Doesnt matter a bollocks if they are married or not. Thats not the states concern.

Oh, and this bollocks of a Polish citizen marrying a lad from Timbuktu and he then being allowed move to any EU country, visa free, with the EU citizen, needs to stop.
 

yayo

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Why should they be undeserving of social welfare if they have contributed to PRSI? Unemployment is probably higher amongst non nationals because many came to fill construction jobs or lower level jobs, many of which have disappeared since 2008.

I am not defending abuse, I am saying there is little proof of real abuse and if there is, its not the EUs fault or competency, it's a matter for the Oireachtas.
38% of Nigerians here are on the dole. 25% of Lithuanians and 21% of Poles.

No, no abuse here. No sirree.
 
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