Will trade unions allow rapid recruitment of nurses' helpers essential to containing COVID-19 pandemic?

Fur Q

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The corrupt coalition of FG/FF were calling them 'unskilled' not so long ago....now they are 'key workers'.
They can't be trusted....it's why they were rejected at the ballot box.
Eh you seem to be getting confused between the UK and Ireland
 


Watcher2

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The corrupt coalition of FG/FF were calling them 'unskilled' not so long ago....now they are 'key workers'.
They can't be trusted....it's why they were rejected at the ballot box.
Who, trade unionists? I would agree there is a certain lack of skill in trade unionists.

You cant be referring to nurses. The politicians made sure they spend 2-4 years learning their trade. How is that unskilled in anyones book?
 

making waves

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In wartime, should Irish front line soldiers be paid 40% more than the front line of our allies with similar economic standards of living? Your argument implicitly suggests that if they weren't risking their lives, they shouldn't be paid 40% more than UK nurses.
They should be paid a hundred times what you get paid because you are a dumb **** who thinks with his pocket and doesn't give a **** about people risking their lives to treat victims of this pandemic. Here is hoping neither you nor any of your family fall victim to this virus - because if it happens you will be begging these people to risk their lives to save yours.

As for your soldiers analogy - well the yanks are very good at paying working class kids a pittance to risk their lives in the interests of profit and cheap oil - while they are protected by 'private contractors' who are paid ten times the wage of these kids.

You really do need to crawl back into your box - before we hear you spouting sh*t about not caring if the old and the sick die because it will help the economy in the long term.
 

Patslatt1

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They should be paid a hundred times what you get paid because you are a dumb **** who thinks with his pocket and doesn't give a **** about people risking their lives to treat victims of this pandemic. Here is hoping neither you nor any of your family fall victim to this virus - because if it happens you will be begging these people to risk their lives to save yours.

As for your soldiers analogy - well the yanks are very good at paying working class kids a pittance to risk their lives in the interests of profit and cheap oil - while they are protected by 'private contractors' who are paid ten times the wage of these kids.

You really do need to crawl back into your box - before we hear you spouting sh*t about not caring if the old and the sick die because it will help the economy in the long term.
BULLYING SCHOOLTEACHER
Your type of bullying schoolteacher mentality,dominant for generatios, has mercifully disappeared from classrooms. Your students must have a low regard for you behind your back.
You appeal to emotional arguments and insults when rationality and dogmatic socialism fails you.
 

Emily Davison

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The key measures needed to contain the Covid-19 pandemic are rapid expansion of hospital bed capacity, installation of respiratory equipment and rapid mass recruitment of nurses' helpers. Given the nursing shortage and the high,serious COVID illness toll among nurses, nurses could soon be overwhelmed. So a really important question is ,will trade unions drop the historic ban on nurses' helpers? Good international practice in the UK and elsewhere allows helpers and qualified assistant nurses to work in hospitals.See Irish nurses unions' virtual closed shop against nursing assistants and associate professionals
PS Are most of the increases in hospital bed capacities coming from cancellation of all elective surgeries? Many so called elective surgeries are vitally important and need to be resumed soon.
Ireland is in the middle of a health crises, of such proportions that nurses will be losing their lives to and you’re concerned about how much they are being paid.

If that wasn’t bad enough you think elective surgeries should not be cancelled. I’m speechless.
 

making waves

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BULLYING SCHOOLTEACHER
Your type of bullying schoolteacher mentality,dominant for generatios, has mercifully disappeared from classrooms. Your students must have a low regard for you behind your back.
Seriously - is that the best you can do. And for your information - I have the utmost respect for the kids I teach - at least they have some morals and ethics when it comes to their fellow human beings.

You appeal to emotional arguments and insults when rationality and dogmatic socialism fails you.
'emotional arguments' - people are dying you dumb ****wit - and they are dying because your beloved capitalism is incapable of saving their lives because it has hacked the health service to bits and the ruling elites are more worried about the fall in the stock market than the rise in infections and deaths. Yet all you can do is complain about the wages people are getting for putting their lives at risk to try and save their fellow human beings what capitalism had and is depriving them of the very means to do so. When you attempt to treat highly skilled professionals like sh*t they walk away and then you are left with a recruitment crisis and a crisis in infrastructure. And what is your answer - cut their wages by 40% because that is what the Brits are paying nurses - except as usual you are wrong and are simply pulling numbers out of your own rear end.
 

Cnoc a Leassa

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On the one hand there has been a broad societal and educational movement towards people becoming “knowledge workers” in a post-industrial and information economy. Much of the “jobs of the future” rhetoric focuses on getting every young person into a third level college, thence into work. Many parents see only one track to success for their children, and it runs through a third level college. This approach also applies to nursing as a career.

In a hospital setting, as in other service orientated business activities, somebody has to actually do things, people must do their work activities, physical and labour intensive, in person and on site. Such essential physical and labour intensive work has suffered a devaluation as a component of education, and as a source of intrinsic richness and dignity in the work itself. This work is at the core of hospital care and it is not going to disappear in the future.

It is now time and opportune to reconsideration the introduction of a new career stream based on the traditional apprenticeship route, working on wards with off site or on site educational module, in a hospital care service, a route that would be open to existing hospital ancillary and support staff and new second level graduates. Give back dignity and recognition to those who do the physical and labour intensive day to day activity of caring for patients. Suggest a 3 Year apprenticeship that would lead to a Licensed Practical Nurse certification.
 

Patslatt1

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Ireland is in the middle of a health crises, of such proportions that nurses will be losing their lives to and you’re concerned about how much they are being paid.

If that wasn’t bad enough you think elective surgeries should not be cancelled. I’m speechless.
The wages issue is a wholly separate issue. Making Waves says the high pay of nurses doesn't matter because they are risking their lives with the virus. The logical implication from this is their pay shouldn't be so high when the virus risk is over.
You misrepresented the issue of cancellation of elective surgeries. A lot of those surgeries relieve people from great pain and in some cases save lives as with hip replacements or repair of broken hips. Instead of relying on cancellations except for the very short term, bed capacity ,purchases of ventilators and recruitment of nurses helpers should be increased dramatically. But will the nurses unions allow nurses helpers to be widely used as in the UK?
BTW, your speechlessness needs a few throat lozenges!
 

Round tower

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The question is, nurses who come back fron abroad to work in Ire. during the Corona Virus crisis hass being told that they have to pay €350 before they can, don't know if it's the unions or is it the Irish nurses and midfrey board or both.
 

Patslatt1

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On the one hand there has been a broad societal and educational movement towards people becoming “knowledge workers” in a post-industrial and information economy. Much of the “jobs of the future” rhetoric focuses on getting every young person into a third level college, thence into work. Many parents see only one track to success for their children, and it runs through a third level college. This approach also applies to nursing as a career.

In a hospital setting, as in other service orientated business activities, somebody has to actually do things, people must do their work activities, physical and labour intensive, in person and on site. Such essential physical and labour intensive work has suffered a devaluation as a component of education, and as a source of intrinsic richness and dignity in the work itself. This work is at the core of hospital care and it is not going to disappear in the future.

It is now time and opportune to reconsideration the introduction of a new career stream based on the traditional apprenticeship route, working on wards with off site or on site educational module, in a hospital care service, a route that would be open to existing hospital ancillary and support staff and new second level graduates. Give back dignity and recognition to those who do the physical and labour intensive day to day activity of caring for patients. Suggest a 3 Year apprenticeship that would lead to a Licensed Practical Nurse certification.
The question is, nurses who come back fron abroad to work in Ire. during the Corona Virus crisis hass being told that they have to pay €350 before they can, don't know if it's the unions or is it the Irish nurses and midfrey board or both.
Doesn't suggest a sense of urgency.
 

Patslatt1

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Niece qualified as a doctor, got her results last week but will not bee starting the internship for 5 weeks, would have thought with the corona virus it would be a lot sooner.
A sense of urgency isn't expected of HSE and unionised public hospitals.
 

making waves

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A sense of urgency isn't expected of HSE and unionised public hospitals.
Not alone are you trying to pretend you are an expert on Maoism - you now have an intimate knowledge on the introduction of newly qualified doctors into the health service.
 

making waves

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It is now time and opportune to reconsideration the introduction of a new career stream based on the traditional apprenticeship route, working on wards with off site or on site educational module, in a hospital care service, a route that would be open to existing hospital ancillary and support staff and new second level graduates. Give back dignity and recognition to those who do the physical and labour intensive day to day activity of caring for patients. Suggest a 3 Year apprenticeship that would lead to a Licensed Practical Nurse certification.
Great idea - oh wait a minute - we did have that - our wonderful neo-liberal government scrapped it because they didn't want to pay trainee nurses.

In a hospital setting, as in other service orientated business activities,
A 'hospital setting' is not a 'service business activity' - it is a health service the purpose of which is to help treat those who are ill.
 

making waves

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The wages issue is a wholly separate issue. Making Waves says the high pay of nurses doesn't matter because they are risking their lives with the virus. The logical implication from this is their pay shouldn't be so high when the virus risk is over.
No - making waves is saying that you have a ****ing cheek complaining about nurses pay when they are risking their lives in a very difficult situation during the middle of a worldwide pandemic.

Making waves has always defended the nurse against your false claims about pay - and notes that today the government will stand up and applaud them while conveniently forgetting that they forced nurses out on strike last year.

You misrepresented the issue of cancellation of elective surgeries. A lot of those surgeries relieve people from great pain and in some cases save lives as with hip replacements or repair of broken hips. Instead of relying on cancellations except for the very short term, bed capacity ,purchases of ventilators and recruitment of nurses helpers should be increased dramatically. But will the nurses unions allow nurses helpers to be widely used as in the UK?
BTW, your speechlessness needs a few throat lozenges!
Of course elective surgeries are important - tell that the a government that has allowed a waiting list of almost three quarters of a million people to pile up (like my wife who has been on a waiting list for nine years) - while those with health insurance can swan off and get their procedures carried out in a matter of weeks.

And it really is laughable to see you talking about purchasing ventilators when you have a hard on for attacking the public service - and you want to dump a bunch of untrained people into the middle of a pandemic crisis.
 

Patslatt1

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No - making waves is saying that you have a ****ing cheek complaining about nurses pay when they are risking their lives in a very difficult situation during the middle of a worldwide pandemic.

Making waves has always defended the nurse against your false claims about pay - and notes that today the government will stand up and applaud them while conveniently forgetting that they forced nurses out on strike last year.


Of course elective surgeries are important - tell that the a government that has allowed a waiting list of almost three quarters of a million people to pile up (like my wife who has been on a waiting list for nine years) - while those with health insurance can swan off and get their procedures carried out in a matter of weeks.

And it really is laughable to see you talking about purchasing ventilators when you have a hard on for attacking the public service - and you want to dump a bunch of untrained people into the middle of a pandemic crisis.
Untrained people? Nurses assistants have certifications in the UK. How long would it take to train a person to specialise in working a ventilator? I'd guess not long, maybe a few days. Emergency training may be needed as the Covid-19 infection rockets upwards.
The claims on pay are well documented,not false as you claim.A few years ago, the average Irish public sector worker was paid about half as much again as the private sector average based on Irish government statistics. Nurses pay obviously reflects that big gap given jealously guarded pay relativies. Given the small gap of about 10% in the UK, Irish nurses are paid way more than UK nurses. You and other hard lefty bloggers constantly try to cover up how the overpaid and overpensioned public sector is screwing the private sector taxpayer on pay.
 

Patslatt1

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Not alone are you trying to pretend you are an expert on Maoism - you now have an intimate knowledge on the introduction of newly qualified doctors into the health service.
I've read extensively on China under Mao, two of his biographies and I'm half way through a third, "Mao the unknown story" by Jung Chang and Irishman Jon Halliday. It received enormous praise from leading UK newspapers including The Guardian.Try it if you're not fearful of having your socialist illusions smashed. Thanks to pitiless appropriation of crops to export in payment for imported military gear, life under Mao for rural Chinese was a lot harder than for Germans under Hitler even in the last days of WW2.
 

making waves

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Untrained people? Nurses assistants have certifications in the UK.
Here is your problem patslatt - as usual you do not know what you are talking about.

The job is not in the UK - it is exclusive to England and it is not called 'nursing assistant' - it is Nursing Associate - and yes it does require certification - after a two year training course. It is regarded as a foundation course for further qualifications for nursing and also requires registration with the Nursing and Midwifery Board.

How long would it take to train a person to specialise in working a ventilator?
Those in charge of an ICU are highly trained Intensivists / Anaesthetists under the supervision of not one, but a team of consultants (minimum 3 years and usually 4 years, post qualification before they can even start working in this sector). It is an extremely difficult job to get into because of the high level of understanding of the nature of caring for ICU patients. And - yes - it is a specialty job to look after an ICU ventilator. To start with large numbers of such patients require sedation for mechanically assisted ventilation. On top of that, a very carefully monitored and regularly refined cocktail of drugs are required to maintain vital organs, with kidney failure a particular problem. Large numbers of Covid 19 patients that require mechanical ventilation will suffer from kidney failure. On top of that there are numerous side effects including sepsis and other secondary infections. Not all patients will require mechanical ventilation - but substantial numbers will - and even those that don't have to be similarly monitored and have prescribed drugs to maintain their bodily functions.

So your claim of -
I'd guess not long, maybe a few days.
means - as usual - you are talking out of your rear end.

Emergency training may be needed as the Covid-19 infection rockets upwards.
Emergency training is already talking place - not with Nursing Associates who are not allowed to touch a syringe and only allowed to administer oral drugs under nursing supervision - but with highly qualified doctors who are being transferred from other departments to cope with the crisis - and the emergency training is not 'a few days' - it is actually going to be done on the fly under Intensivist/Anaesthetist supervision because of the scale of the crisis. None of these doctors will be allowed to operate on their own during this crisis - because if they were, they would make mistakes and kill people.

The claims on pay are well documented,not false as you claim.A few years ago, the average Irish public sector worker was paid about half as much again as the private sector average based on Irish government statistics. Nurses pay obviously reflects that big gap given jealously guarded pay relativies. Given the small gap of about 10% in the UK, Irish nurses are paid way more than UK nurses. You and other hard lefty bloggers constantly try to cover up how the overpaid and overpensioned public sector is screwing the private sector taxpayer on pay.
Well-documented - yea - from the right-wing media in this country who, like you, take selective quotes from doctored reports and blow them out of proportion.

Are Irish nurses paid more than UK nurses? - yes they are - they also work longer hours, have significantly poorer working conditions, have significantly more clinical responsibility, have a higher cost of living and fewer opportunities for training and career advancement. In fact when you ignore outside issues like the cost of living - and focus just on working hours and professional development - Irish nurses are paid marginally higher than the UK (approx £1 per hour). If the pay of Irish nurses was so good you have to explain why large numbers of nurses leave this country every single year to work abroad, including to the UK (and the same applies with doctors).

But then again - this really has nothing to do with the work that medical professionals do in this country or what they get paid - nothing to do with the fact that during this pandemic every single one of them are risking their lives (a fifth of all Covid19 cases in Ireland are frontline hospital staff) - and everything to do with your anti-public sector agenda that you spend hours spouting on this forum.
 


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