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Winston Churchill


G

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I'm reading Roy Jenkins' excellent biography of the great man at the moment, and I thought I'd start a general thread on WSC.

So, what do the good people of politics.ie think of him? Irish Republicans, Unionists, admirers and detractors of empire, share your thoughts!

His oratory was stupendous, as were his literary abilities. According to Jenkins, he completed 70,000 words of his History of the English Speaking Peoples in four weeks - this during the late 1930s.

He appears to have warmed significantly to Michael Collins, and his wife Clementine urged him during the Treaty negotiations to put himself "in the place of the Irish."

He was a master of one-liners, a good example being in Canada in December 1941 where a journalist asked how soon the war would end. "If we manage it well," he said, "it will be over twice as quickly than if we manage it badly." 8)
 

Respvblica

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antagoniser said:
A courageous and honorable politician. And an interesting person.
Was he that honorable? He was what he was, a cocksure, well healed but brilliant journalist/writer and publiscist. His propaganda worked wonders but his militarystrategy left a lot to be desired.
 

White Horse

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I have just read an interesting book "Churchill And Ireland" that describes the huge regard Churchill had for Ireland.

As mentioned he had huge respect for Collins. He also held Kevin O'Higgins in high regard, referring him as “a figure from antiquity cast in bronze”.
 

Ard-eoin

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antagoniser said:
A courageous and honorable politician. And an interesting person.
Churchill was an extremely anti-Irish Conservative. Who wanted to use planes to drop bombs on Dublin and Cork cities during the Tan War.

Not very courageous or honourable? He was also the British Minister who forced dedicated T.D.s' to sign the Treaty in 1921 - under the threat of War!
 

pogo

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Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
According to Joseph Goebbels, the DDR, David Irving, Cain (politics.ie's most intelligent poster), the neo-Nazi NPD and now Zeitgeist.
 

pogo

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asteroid said:
I'm reading Roy Jenkins' excellent biography of the great man at the moment, and I thought I'd start a general thread on WSC.

So, what do the good people of politics.ie think of him? Irish Republicans, Unionists, admirers and detractors of empire, share your thoughts!
You might be interested in this debate.
 

Zeitgeist

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pogo said:
Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
According to Joseph Goebbels, the DDR, David Irving, Cain (politics.ie's most intelligent poster), the neo-Nazi NPD and now Zeitgeist.
What are your numbers Pogo? The internationally accepted death figure of women and children is 150000. Most historians put this figure even higher as far as 300000.
 

pogo

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Zeitgeist said:
pogo said:
Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
According to Joseph Goebbels, the DDR, David Irving, Cain (politics.ie's most intelligent poster), the neo-Nazi NPD and now Zeitgeist.
What are your numbers Pogo? The internationally accepted death figure of women and children is 150000. Most historians put this figure even higher as far as 300000.
Certainly less than 40,000. Probably significantly less. There was a discussion about this in the link above.

I have little desire to do the research again.
 

Zeitgeist

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pogo said:
Zeitgeist said:
pogo said:
Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
According to Joseph Goebbels, the DDR, David Irving, Cain (politics.ie's most intelligent poster), the neo-Nazi NPD and now Zeitgeist.
What are your numbers Pogo? The internationally accepted death figure of women and children is 150000. Most historians put this figure even higher as far as 300000.
Certainly less than 40,000. Probably significantly less. There was a discussion about this in the link above.

I have little desire to do the research again.
Pogo you are a revisionist and a denier of mass murder. A minimum of 150000 women and children died during the cowardly bombing raids on Dresden a city filled with refugees.
 

Kev408

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Respvblica said:
antagoniser said:
A courageous and honorable politician. And an interesting person.
Was he that honorable? He was what he was, a cocksure, well healed but brilliant journalist/writer and publiscist. His propaganda worked wonders but his militarystrategy left a lot to be desired.
Gallipoli. ANZACs, Irish (11 survivors out of 1,102 of the Dublin Fusiliers)and English soldiers (many of them Lancashire Fusiliers) sent to their death in what was probably the most disastrous military action ever taken by the Brits. The sad thing was they knew they were sending men to certain, not possible, death. A serious blight on Churchills career.

Nevertheless he was an entertaining man in later years. He continued a correspondence with de Gaulle the greatest bollox (personality-wise) ever in politics, until the day he died. They had a mutual respect. I read one of Churchill's biographies last year and it was a great read. For me though, my thoughts on that man always drift back to the absolutely pointless slaughter at Gallipoli. Churchill resigned as First Lord of the Admiralty after the debacle.

Two things amaze me about his career. Firstly that he ever recovered politically after Gallipoli, and secondly, after such a great performance in WWII his party were ousted. Politics eh?
 
G

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Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
I would call that 'payback', Zeitgeist. Blame the Nazis for starting the war, you know, the fellows the Germans voted into power so enthusiastically in 1933.
 
G

Guest

Someone said he 'opposed equality' in the nineteen-teens. Well, given the time, whoop-di-do.

He was instrumental in the introduction of the minimum wage in Britain, and when he was still an MP fought in the trenches on the Western Front.
 

ireland2004

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asteroid said:
Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
I would call that 'payback', Zeitgeist. Blame the Nazis for starting the war, you know, the fellows the Germans voted into power so enthusiastically in 1933.
30something % of Germans actually.

And you couldn't exactly say after gaining that percentage of the vote he acted democratically...
 

Zeitgeist

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asteroid said:
Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
I would call that 'payback', Zeitgeist. Blame the Nazis for starting the war, you know, the fellows the Germans voted into power so enthusiastically in 1933.
I never argued against the fact that nazi-germany started the war. But until this day I can't see the point of bombing 150000 people to death towards the end of that war. Yes is it was revange by churchill and his right hand bomber harris. These people therefore lost their moral highground they claimed to have over the nazis.
 

ireland2004

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asteroid said:
He was instrumental in the introduction of the minimum wage in Britain, and when he was still an MP fought in the trenches on the Western Front.
He fought did he? First time I've heard anyone say that. All I heard before was that he was sent over in an advisory role.
 

Zeitgeist

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ireland2004 said:
asteroid said:
Zeitgeist said:
He was a war criminal and ordered the killing of 150000 civilians in Dresden by bombing them to death.
I would call that 'payback', Zeitgeist. Blame the Nazis for starting the war, you know, the fellows the Germans voted into power so enthusiastically in 1933.
30something % of Germans actually.

And you couldn't exactly say after gaining that percentage of the vote he acted democratically...
Its right 30% voted for Hitler at a time when british royals and bankers were queing up to support Hitler. After that queer austrian came to power the british kept giving him bank loans and the royals with their anti-semitism were sucking up to him. They all knew well what he was about. Prince Philipp went to a nazi funeral in 1937, four years after Hitler came to power and hundreds of thousands of political opponents had been murdered by that time.
 

Kev408

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asteroid said:
Someone said he 'opposed equality' in the nineteen-teens. Well, given the time, whoop-di-do.

He was instrumental in the introduction of the minimum wage in Britain, and when he was still an MP fought in the trenches on the Western Front.
I agree that one must look at history in the perspective of the times in question but regarding equality, Irish women were given the vote shortly thereafter. Churchill actively opposed giving women the vote.
 

pogo

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Zeitgeist said:
Pogo you are a revisionist and a denier of mass murder. A minimum of 150000 women and children died during the cowardly bombing raids on Dresden a city filled with refugees.
Here are some German figures:

Reichart (Dresden City museum): 25,000.

Contemporary police report: between 18 and 22 thousand (Goebbels added a nought to final figure)

Der Spiegel 25 to 40 thousand.

Your figures come from the Nazis, Communists and the discredited David Irving.

You'll find the most intelligent poster on this site, Cain1798, would also agree with your figures.
 
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