Woman challenges Public Services Card requirement for state pension

Orbit v2

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Woman’s pension cut after she refuses to get public services card

I think she has a point. Personally, I don't have a problem with a public services card, or call it an ID card if you like. But, they shouldn't sneak it in the back door without legislating for it. It's totally disingenuous to say it is not compulsory. The law currently says you just have to satisfy the minister as to your identity and there should be multiple ways to do that. If they want an ID card to make it more efficient, then legislate.
 


HarshBuzz

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If the headline was "silly old bat refused library books after refusing to produce library card", would that change things?
 

mr_anderson

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She said when she first learned that she was entitled to a non-contributory pension of €166 per week, as well as her contributory pension, officials had called to her house to verify her details, including her marriage certificate
Non-Contributory Pension.
She can get free money, but moans because she has to get an ID card in order to do so.
The headline should read 'Woman in her 70's acts like a child'.

Knowing this country, she'll get her way too.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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If the headline was "silly old bat refused library books after refusing to produce library card", would that change things?


To be comparable, it would need to be a refusal to provide a public services card.

And why abuse the woman? Is it alien to you that someone might have principles?
 

Orbit v2

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If the headline was "silly old bat refused library books after refusing to produce library card", would that change things?
On the other hand, if the library service demanded one of these public services cards, then I'd expect the same problem to arise. People would ask themselves, why tf do I have to get a government ID to borrow books?

I'm not disputing the obvious efficiency such a card enables and I am supportive of it in practice. What I can't abide is the dishonesty of the government in how they implemented it. They wanted to avoid all hassle that would resulted from discussion of the data sharing and other implications of it. As poster #2 asks, what are they afraid of?
 

tigerben

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They were quite satisfied who she was when she was paying her taxes.
 

Mad as Fish

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On the other hand, if the library service demanded one of these public services cards, then I'd expect the same problem to arise. People would ask themselves, why tf do I have to get a government ID to borrow books?

I'm not disputing the obvious efficiency such a card enables and I am supportive of it in practice. What I can't abide is the dishonesty of the government in how they implemented it. They wanted to avoid all hassle that would resulted from discussion of the data sharing and other implications of it. As poster #2 asks, what are they afraid of?
Wrong, wrong and utterly wrong.

All it enables is news methods of fraud.
 

Clanrickard

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She is spot on. She is asking them to prove that registering for the card is mandatory. The DSP has not been able to prove this. They have been to her house to verify her identity so they don't need to see the card. From the link in the OP...
About 2.75 million have been issued to date but Ministers have insisted the card is not “compulsory”.
So if it is not compulsory and they have verified who she is why has she not be paid what she is owed? This an ID card back the back door and should not be compulsory.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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This doesn't make much sense ... what about the free travel she'd be undoubtedly entitled to with the card.


There are benefits to having a card ... I do hope this has been explained to her ...

The pros and cons could have been discussed as part of properly legislating for this
 

Sync

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I don't see the issue. She's been told she needs the card. Their website and their literature is perfectly clear that she needs the card. She's refused to get the card. She won't get paid. Problem solved?

If she wants to go to court, she should go to court. I've no idea on what possible argument she could have to do so, but her TD should send her a PFO letter.
 

Sync

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So if it is not compulsory and they have verified who she is why has she not be paid what she is owed? This an ID card back the back door and should not be compulsory.
It's not compulsory. It's just a requirement if you want certain services. A passport isn't compulsory. It's just a requirement if you want certain services. They don't need to prove it's mandatory at all, because a: No one's said it is and b: They don't have to prove anything to her.
 

Clanrickard

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This doesn't make much sense ... what about the free travel she'd be undoubtedly entitled to with the card.
There are benefits to having a card ... I do hope this has been explained to her ...
It is automatic for over 65 and carers. Why does she this particular card to prove who she is? Why not a passport or driver's license?
 

Mad as Fish

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Right, lets get down to basics here and ask a few questions -

1. What is the point of this ID database?
2. Who thought it up and what are they trying to achieve.
3. Was it's construction and implementation ever discussed or debated outside of closed public service/political services.
4. Was any consideration given to its impact on civil liberties?
5. Were we, as the public and citizens of Ireland asked or consulted?
6. What is the scope of the database.
7. Have any constraints been put on its use?
8. Who has access to it?
9. Who can enter or edit details?
10. What precautions have been put in place to prevent misuse by government agencies or politicians?
11. Why do the banks want nothing to do with it if it is meant to be a secure method of identification?
12. Just how does it fit in with the present law?
13. What oversight is there on its use and implementation?
14. What personal details are required and has the government made any attempt tp justify their collection?
15. Does it devalue other forms of ID such as passports and driving licences?
16. Is it compatible with EU law?

These are just some of the many questions surrounding the ID database and it needs to be dragged out into the open so we all know what the hell is going on. At the end of the day is it any more than a giant phishing scam by the government?
 

Clanrickard

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It's not compulsory. It's just a requirement if you want certain services. A passport isn't compulsory. It's just a requirement if you want certain services. They don't need to prove it's mandatory at all, because a: No one's said it is and b: They don't have to prove anything to her.
But it is not a requirement for certain services. The Minister needs to be satisfied as to her identity that is all.
The woman had told officials that she would get the card if they could show her it was “mandatory” but nothing had been produced to show her that this was the case. .
SO it is not mandatory. They have been to her house and verified who she is. They are trying to railroad everyone into having this card.
 

ShoutingIsLeadership

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It's not compulsory. It's just a requirement if you want certain services. A passport isn't compulsory. It's just a requirement if you want certain services. They don't need to prove it's mandatory at all, because a: No one's said it is and b: They don't have to prove anything to her.
It's mandatory in order to avail of entitlements which have always been available to citizens.

It's like a bank arguing that it's not necessary to take out life assurance with it, but then saying that if you don't you can't get a mortgage from that bank.

That's illegal, as it is exploitative.
 

Myers Mimnagh

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Very simple solution to this, no card, no pension.
 

Mad as Fish

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This doesn't make much sense ... what about the free travel she'd be undoubtedly entitled to with the card.


There are benefits to having a card ... I do hope this has been explained to her ...
The delivery of those benefits are perfectly possible without an ID database being constructed.
 


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