Would libertarian legalisation of illegal drugs coupled with a health care approach prove better than prohibition for society?

Lumpy Talbot

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No
The only arguments that make any sense in this area are the arguments which involve legalisation and regulation. Apart from the lives saved by the elimination of the dirtier end of the market and adulterated product it would be far easier to apply health and recovery principles to people with real problems leading to the desire for obliteration.

In a perfect world people who self-harm and self-medicate would attract the attention of people trained to see and help the person deal with the underlying problem rather than the symptoms.

It isn't a perfect world and the resources aren't there and probably never will be. It would be nice to think one practical change could be taking the entire lethally profitable drug market out of the hands of organised crime. And the only way to manage that is by removing the market altogether by economic means. Which unavoidably means legalisation and regulation.
 


Lumpy Talbot

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No
I would be an advocate of putting strong doses of cannabis in the national water supply. If there's an argument for fluoride there is certainly a wellbeing argument for cannabis.

Look at the scenery we have. We'd have every excuse in the world for explaining at the UN how we are stoned all the time and what at a pleasant existence it is and is the world not currently enjoying the benefits of our largest national export, chocolate cake, or wha'.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
So what if our fish exports have a somewhat more glazed look to their eyes than usual. The meat will be fine. The fish would have been well relaxed about being caught.
 

omgsquared

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Very Mixed feelings about the issue , I think it has been tried in Portugal re Heroin and it seems to have improved the situation. However all societies need to ensure that laws are policed and that there is a fit for purpose legal system . This does not appear to be the case in Ireland. Similarly re our health services , not fit for purpose and need radical redesign, restructuring and not necessarily more resources.
 

pedagogus

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Very Mixed feelings about the issue , I think it has been tried in Portugal re Heroin and it seems to have improved the situation. However all societies need to ensure that laws are policed and that there is a fit for purpose legal system . This does not appear to be the case in Ireland. Similarly re our health services , not fit for purpose and need radical redesign, restructuring and not necessarily more resources.
The change in Portugal was caused by the sheer scale of the problem there which forced even conservative politicians to try decriminalization. They still have some problems but the large scale public drug taking has declined. We would do well to take a good non-judgemental look at what they are doing and see if we could learn from it.
 

Stentor

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Virgin Media's 9pm March 4th documentary on gardai's policing of violent Dublin drug gangs shocked many viewers. It should lead to a complete overhaul of the policy on illegal drugs with an emphasis on health care for addiction or even a libertarian legalisation of drugs.
Libertarians believe the citizen should be free to do whatever s/he likes as long as it doesn't harm others. The harm to others of illegal drug use is indirect in that by example it encourages the curious,naive,ill informed and reckless to try drugs that are potentially extremely harmful.
The first major experiment with prohibition was the prohibition of alcohol in the USA in the 1920s. That proved disastrous as gangs sprung up all over the country to supply the enormous mass demand for alcohol,with police departments bribed to ignore speakeasy pubs.
While demand for illegal drugs today in the USA isn't a mass market like alcohol, it is a very big market for a minority of maybe a tenth of the adult population. Its size in buying power is so large that together with demand in Europe it funds drug gangs and their franchise networks that seriously threaten democratic governments in Mexico, Columbia and central America.
The tens of thousands of drug related murders in recent years in Mexico suggest the futility of a "War on drugs" started by the administration of President Nixon over a generation ago. In the USA, drug related crimes and punitive prison sentences explain the enormous incarceration rates of black Americans. Aside from the costs in policing drugs,these are extreme prices to pay for the endless war on drugs.
So maybe it's high time to consider legalisation of all illegal drugs, not just cannabis. To protect the public,the model should include government control of drug quality and distribution. Distribution outlets shouldn't be in convenient locations, to discourage consumption. As for drug quality, a high quality of some drugs regarded as deadly long run needn't prove an immediate threat to health. Apparently, Louis Armstrong and Ray Charles lived to old ages despite a heroin habit presumably because they could afford a high quality supply. Crack cocaine would be problematic though, as it is can be extremely addictive after a very short period of use, unlike cocaine. Drugs that are known to be extremely harmful in the short term should be off the menu.
There should be some regulatory barriers to shopping for drugs in government outlets. Shoppers should undergo an initial counselling session on the dangers of the drugs they wish to buy, with a waiting period of a few weeks before buying. There should be limits on the quantities they buy recorded on a common database in all outlets. The limits would be needed to prevent sales on the street. In cases of drugs known to be toxic for health,their users should be recorded in a confidential database at the HSE to prevent their health issues from clogging up lengthy waiting lists.
Such measures would deprive drug gangs of most of their market, drastically reducing criminality as gangs fade away and addicts find a legal supply. There is a danger that gangs would turn to other crimes but few crimes generate so much money as drugs. There is a possibility that smuggling between Ireland and Brexit could prove lucrative without the violence of the drug trade.
Just cut and paste legislation from a civilised country that's already started to dismantle their victorian crime and punishment factory.

Of course the major drug dealers will have to make room or adapt...ya know...the vintners association and of course the GP's.
 

Stentor

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Have a good look at the graph at top of page. Understand it? Quite simple really.


Now. See all the social bills stuff you lot are squawking about...that's a result of your current retard system. Not a result of anything else.

But..but...but..shut the fock up monkey.

Back to the graph and furrow your dim brow.
 

Lumpy Talbot

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No
Always amusing to see those occasional busts of a shipment by the authorities from time to time. Big pile of bales or kilos or whatever. None of the busts changes the price of the product on the street.

That alone is financial and economic confirmation that the prohibition element of the war on drugs failed long ago.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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... By any measure, cannabis is much less dangerous than alcohol.
That I'm not sure about.

Consider the Black Murder Rate in America.

From 2000 to 2015, the mean African-American homicide-victimization rate, adjusted for age, was 20.1 per 100,000. That’s more than three times the Hispanic rate of 6.4 (despite disadvantages comparable to those of blacks) and over seven times the average white rate, 2.7.

The Need to Discuss Black-on-Black Crime
I know it's disputed but I believe that one factor for that is the prevalence of hashish-smoking among Black Americans.

'Hash'. 'Pot', 'Cannabts' and 'Marijuana' are all effectively euphemisms for Hashish. And of course the word Assassin derives from Hashish. In the East the link between Hashish and murder has been recognised for many centuries.
 

Old Mr Grouser

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Have a good look at the graph at top of page. Understand it? Quite simple really ...
No. It isn't.

For one thing, one man's meat is another's poison.

Take Alcohol for example. Some people have hollow legs, it has little effect on them. Other people are knocked out by only a small amount. Others can;t drink without wanting to scream, shout and fight everyone (they term it 'socialising) etc etc
 

Patslatt1

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That I'm not sure about.
Consider the Black Murder Rate in America.



I know it's disputed but I believe that one factor for that is the prevalence of hashish-smoking among Black Americans.

'Hash'. 'Pot', 'Cannabts' and 'Marijuana' are all effectively euphemisms for Hashish. And of course the word Assassin derives from Hashish. In the East the link between Hashish and murder has been recognised for many centuries.
Decades of job discrimination coupled with what looked like generous social welfare to blacks undermined the black American family. It takes two parents to raise a family well,not to deny that many single mothers succeed with great effort.Uncle Sam became the father to families. As the single mother family model dominated black communities, discipline among teenagers fell,education standards fell and respect for law declined. The ambitious blacks moved out of such socially deprived areas. On a far smaller scale, white communities in socially excluded housing estates experienced similar social decline.
 


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