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Would women still go to the UK for abortions if they were freely available in Ireland?

Al Gebra

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One troubling thing here is the fact that people think that Irish people are allowed to travel abroad to abuse kids and then return free from the law is somehow a good excuse not to have certain laws.
How about prosecuting Irish citizens who have abused kids anywhere on their return to Ireland? (provided there is sufficient evidence and due process)
 


livingstone

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I would suspect the opposite.

I think that if it was not possible to have an abortion in the UK and every woman who became pregnant here had to go through with it, there would be a much stronger push for legalised abortion in the country.

Having abortion freely available only a 45 minute flight away acts as a pressure-release valve on public opinion.
Indeed - was it Mary Harney that said that if Ireland were Iceland, abortion would have been legalised twenty years ago because getting to Britain would not have been a ready option for most. It is hypocrisy of the highest order.
 

wickalah

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"I'm glad I had an abortion" Reprehensible human being.
Far less reprehensible than someone, who has nothing to do with your life generally, telling you that you have to have a baby you don't want (or can't care for properly).
 

SilverSpurs

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In which Asian countries is paedophilia legal? And can you name some women who've had abortions that you think are morally equivalent to paedophiles?
Take a peek at this Age of consent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and you will see that paedophilia is legal in a lot of countries so why export the probelm, the hypocrisy of it all!!!
I have clearly pointed out the absurdity of the argument that we should legalise something just because our citizens/residents can head off to Dublin airport. Would you advocate exit controls on single men with plane tickets to those countries? Would you make them take lie detector tests? Would you carry out DNA inspections on their bodies when they return for evidence of contact with a minor???
 

livingstone

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One troubling thing here is the fact that people think that Irish people are allowed to travel abroad to abuse kids and then return free from the law is somehow a good excuse not to have certain laws.
How about prosecuting Irish citizens who have abused kids anywhere on their return to Ireland? (provided there is sufficient evidence and due process)
Indeed, and this is at the heart of why the pro-life position is inconsistent.

If you genuinely believe that a foetus is a full human life deserving of full legal protection, then anyone who procures the end of that life should be tried for murder. Yet most pro-life people don't believe in prosecuting women who have had abortions overseas. Why? It has to be a tacit admission that whatever the real status of a foetus is, most pro-life people simply cannot claim that they believe that it is a full human life.

The same goes for pro-life people who are OK with abortion in cases of rape or incest. Again, in no other aspect of human life would we tolerate killing purely based on the circumstances by which the victim was conceived. So if you tolerate abortion based on the means of conception of a foetus, that has to be a tacit admission that the status of a foetus is less than the status of a born person.

The example of the woman in the UK who aborted a baby at close to 9 months and received a prison sentence is instructive. Most pro-life (and pro-choice) people would support that sentence. But yet very few would support jail for someone who had an abortion at 3 months. Why? Again, it is a tacit admission on the part of those who are pro-life that the status of a foetus changes as it develops.
 

wickalah

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Equally the fact that paedophilia is legal in some asian countries means we can export our paedophile problem. If this "pressure-release valve" wasn't available........
That is (as you may have realised since posting it) a truely moronic comparison that may have seemed clever before it squirmed its way out of what you call a brain and smeared itself into the public domain.

Exactly. Laws are not just dos and donts. They are statements of what society finds acceptable and unacceptable.
Aha, you have a friend with the same slender grasp of reality and logic.

It is my belief (in answer to the OP question) that, without access to abortions in the UK, public opinion in favour of allowing abortion in Ireland would have built up reached critical mass before now. You disagree, fair enough.

Have you seen any similar groundswell of public opinion (outside the clergy) in favour of legalising paedophilia in certain cases in Ireland?

If not, please shove your pointless analogy where the sun don't shine.
 

potholedogger

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That is (as you may have realised since posting it) a truely moronic comparison that may have seemed clever before it squirmed its way out of what you call a brain and smeared itself into the public domain.



Aha, you have a friend with the same slender grasp of reality and logic.

It is my belief (in answer to the OP question) that, without access to abortions in the UK, public opinion in favour of allowing abortion in Ireland would have built up reached critical mass before now. You disagree, fair enough.

Have you seen any similar groundswell of public opinion (outside the clergy) in favour of legalising paedophilia in certain cases in Ireland?

If not, please shove your pointless analogy where the sun don't shine.
Have pro life people tactically supported the right to travel in order to keep abortion out of Ireland?
 

wickalah

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Equally the fact that paedophilia is legal in some asian countries means we can export our paedophile problem. If this "pressure-release valve" wasn't available........
Have pro life people tactically supported the right to travel in order to keep abortion out of Ireland?
Do you mean "Have some people, who object to freely-available abortion in Ireland, supported the right of Irish women to travel to the UK to have an abortion?"

Demonstrably, yes.
 

potholedogger

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Do you mean "Have some people, who object to freely-available abortion in Ireland, supported the right of Irish women to travel to the UK to have an abortion?"

Demonstrably, yes.
What kind of moral reasoning would lie behind that approach?
 

Al Gebra

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Take a peek at this Age of consent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and you will see that paedophilia is legal in a lot of countries so why export the probelm, the hypocrisy of it all!!!
I have clearly pointed out the absurdity of the argument that we should legalise something just because our citizens/residents can head off to Dublin airport. Would you advocate exit controls on single men with plane tickets to those countries? Would you make them take lie detector tests? Would you carry out DNA inspections on their bodies when they return for evidence of contact with a minor???
No but we could prosecute people if there was sufficient evidence that they had abused.
Should Ireland recognise a marriage in Yemen of a man to a 14/12 year old?
In the same way we could enact laws to prosecute women who have had abortions.
The difficulty in enforcing laws is not a good reason not to have them.
That is only a point about the standard of evidence needed to successfully prosecute someone.
 

sondagefaux

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One troubling thing here is the fact that people think that Irish people are allowed to travel abroad to abuse kids and then return free from the law is somehow a good excuse not to have certain laws.

How about prosecuting Irish citizens who have abused kids anywhere on their return to Ireland? (provided there is sufficient evidence and due process)
Irish law already extends its jurisdiction in such circumstances. An Irish person who travels abroad, abuses children, and then returns to Ireland can be prosecuted in the Irish courts.
 

sondagefaux

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Take a peek at this Age of consent - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and you will see that paedophilia is legal in a lot of countries so why export the probelm, the hypocrisy of it all!!!
I have clearly pointed out the absurdity of the argument that we should legalise something just because our citizens/residents can head off to Dublin airport. Would you advocate exit controls on single men with plane tickets to those countries? Would you make them take lie detector tests? Would you carry out DNA inspections on their bodies when they return for evidence of contact with a minor???
A lower age of consent is not evidence that a state condones paedophilia. Irish law already enables the prosecution of Irish citizens who travel abroad and committ sexual offences against children. They can be prosecuted in the Irish courts on their return.

Why are you equating abortion with paedophilia? Are you suggesting that women who've had abortions are morally equivalent to paedophiles? Are you suggesting that Irish women who travel abroad for legal abortions should be prosecuted, despite their clear constitutional right to do so?
 

wickalah

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What kind of moral reasoning would lie behind that approach?
A moral coward's reasoning.

"Well, if it keeps abortion out of Ireland..."

If you don't believe me, have a look at the 13th & 14th amendments which were passed by referendum.
Getting a referendum passed that would allow freely-available abortion in Ireland, even now, would be a tough ask.

Therefore the number of people in favour of allowing women travel to the UK for abortions is greater than those who would allow freely-available abortion in Ireland.

Therefore there is a significant proportion of the population against abortion in Ireland but in favour of allowing travel for abortions (and even allowing the provision of information on abortion abroad).

I agree, it makes no moral sense, but it is fact.
 

Al Gebra

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Irish law already extends its jurisdiction in such circumstances. An Irish person who travels abroad, abuses children, and then returns to Ireland can be prosecuted in the Irish courts.
And so it should....

My point is that the non existence or non enforcement of current laws about extra territorial abortion seems to be conspicuously absent from the pro-life argument.
 

sondagefaux

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And so it should....

My point is that the non existence or non enforcement of current laws about extra territorial abortion seems to be conspicuously absent from the pro-life argument.
There can be no such laws. The Irish constitution clearly gives women a right to travel abroad to get a legal abortion, without restriction.
 

Al Gebra

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There can be no such laws. The Irish constitution clearly gives women a right to travel abroad to get a legal abortion, without restriction.
I know.

The fact that the Irish people are not calling for prosecution or overturning the constiutional provision indicates that the equivalence with murder that some people describe abortion as is not recognised by the majority unless people believe that citizens who murder abroad should be free from prosecution.
As I said on a different thread the 1992 travel and information provision is the one that tacitly allowed abortion.
The rest is just an exercise in NIMBYism.
 

SilverSpurs

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A lower age of consent is not evidence that a state condones paedophilia. Irish law already enables the prosecution of Irish citizens who travel abroad and committ sexual offences against children. They can be prosecuted in the Irish courts on their return.

Why are you equating abortion with paedophilia? Are you suggesting that women who've had abortions are morally equivalent to paedophiles? Are you suggesting that Irish women who travel abroad for legal abortions should be prosecuted, despite their clear constitutional right to do so?
You don't consider sex with a 12 year old paedophilia you sick sick man.

I have demonstrated the fallacy of the argument that the legality of abortion in other states means we should scrap our ban. Loads of our laws can be circumvented by international travel yet this for some reason this argument is only valid regarding abortion! How about our ban on staghunting? You can travel to France to do it...the hypocrisy of exporting our staghunters, somebody else cleaning up our mess....:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:
 

SilverSpurs

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And so it should....

My point is that the non existence or non enforcement of current laws about extra territorial abortion seems to be conspicuously absent from the pro-life argument.
Equally when has anyone ever been convicted of an offence under extra-territorial laws??? There is a thread active on Cathal O'Searchaigh right now.
 

livingstone

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Equally when has anyone ever been convicted of an offence under extra-territorial laws??? There is a thread active on Cathal O'Searchaigh right now.
Should they though?

I've no problems with child abuse in other countries by an Irish citizen being prosecuted in Ireland.

Do you think that someone procuring an abortion abroad should be prosecuted in Ireland (leaving aside the Constitutional issue...assuming you could change the Constitution at will)?
 


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