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Would you still support austerity if...


feargach

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Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
... you couldn't leave Ireland, or get your money out of here?

I have a strong suspicion that many of those who support this extremely dubious policy are secretly betting on being able to escape the consequences if and when it all goes pear-shaped.

In fact, I believe many actively want it to go down the tubes, and getting themselves and/or their dosh out of Ireland and into a tax haven. Then they wait for everything to collapse, then come back in with their stash, and buy up lots of things at rock-bottom prices.

Clearly, if a person has this plan, the rational thing for the country to do is the precise opposite of what he wants.

So, pro-austerity folk: would you change your demands if you had to suffer the full consequences of an Nicosia-style collapse, and you couldn't get your cash out of danger.

That means that if a post-collapse Irish government took all your savings, you couldn't escape it.
 

commonman

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May 29, 2010
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5,357
The problem there a lot of us cant leave and dont want to leave, what can we do when we keep putting in right wing people that put the banks and the rich people first .
 
M

MrFunkyZombaloo

I don't know if I qualify for the question because b. I don't have any money in a bank account, anywhere and a. I don't have the funds to leave Ireland and establish myself abroad (not that I want to leave - yet).

But my answer is yes, I still believe the government should reduce spending to match income.
 

commonman

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May 29, 2010
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5,357
I don't know if I qualify for the question because b. I don't have any money in a bank account, anywhere and a. I don't have the funds to leave Ireland and establish myself abroad (not that I want to leave - yet).

But my answer is yes, I still believe the government should reduce spending to match income.

You are in the same boat as myself, but who do you think is suffering the most with this austerity.
 

sic transit

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Jan 30, 2008
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25,579
Our austerity came about because of the income shortfall and the fact that no-one would give us any money. I'm all for closing that gap.
 

ger12

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Feb 25, 2011
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48,255
I can't leave and I've no money so my Yes probably doesn't really count.
 

commonman

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May 29, 2010
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Our austerity came about because of the income shortfall and the fact that no-one would give us any money. I'm all for closing that gap.
Yes great ok, 1, will every country in europe do what Ireland are doing. 2 who suffers the most with austerity.
 

sic transit

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Jan 30, 2008
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Yes great ok, 1, will every country in europe do what Ireland are doing. 2 who suffers the most with austerity.
1. Who cares what other countries do? We are addressing out own problem and what they do will have no effect on it.
2. I am not suffering through this austerity because I have adjusted to it just like pretty much everyone I know and I am not wasting my time bitching about it. The positive that will come out of this period is that multiple generations will be reminded of the notion of good housekeeping that vanished under the torrent of almost free cash we had.
 
M

MrFunkyZombaloo

You are in the same boat as myself, but who do you think is suffering the most with this austerity.
Mostly middle income families, the disabled, the sick, children, the unemployed.

I don't believe the government should indiscriminately slash spending either. Prioritisation is the key. The government raised 56.6billion in revenue in 2012. We can easily afford to fund education, health, welfare and justice (among others) with that level of state(and local) funding.
 
Joined
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22,911
Mostly middle income families, the disabled, the sick, children, the unemployed.

I don't believe the government should indiscriminately slash spending either. Prioritisation is the key. The government raised 56.6billion in revenue in 2012. We can easily afford to fund education, health, welfare and justice (among others) with that level of state(and local) funding.
Great talking about funding these sectors but when these sectors have their hands out for more and more and more expecting a bottomless bucket of cash to be always available.

Income Taxation is theft of an individuals income they have earned.

Claiming that its is to help society in general doesn't wash when elements of the society only ever wish to be the recipients and never feel they should be obliged to contribute anything.
 

commonman

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May 29, 2010
Messages
5,357
1. Who cares what other countries do? We are addressing out own problem and what they do will have no effect on it.
2. I am not suffering through this austerity because I have adjusted to it just like pretty much everyone I know and I am not wasting my time bitching about it. The positive that will come out of this period is that multiple generations will be reminded of the notion of good housekeeping that vanished under the torrent of almost free cash we had.
It does matter what other countries do, we have to deal with them with the euro and if the cant buy or we cant sell there will be trouble ahead. 2 there was never free cash the people are paying for it now as the banks get off scot free, one good point about all this that you make is that people will not be foolish with there money in the future and that they will trust nobody with there money.a friend of mine working in a bank told me that the banks will start sending credit cards in the next year to try and get people to spend there money does that has any.
 

feargach

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Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
Our austerity came about because of the income shortfall and the fact that no-one would give us any money. I'm all for closing that gap.
So you're against Eurobonds? Why? Investors are desperate for Eurobonds and will buy as many as are issued.

Why?
 

sic transit

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So you're against Eurobonds? Why? Investors are desperate for Eurobonds and will buy as many as are issued.

Why?
Is there something in the post I wrote that I missed or are you leaping to a conclusion that only you understand?
 
M

MrFunkyZombaloo

Great talking about funding these sectors but when these sectors have their hands out for more and more and more expecting a bottomless bucket of cash to be always available.

Income Taxation is theft of an individuals income they have earned.

Claiming that its is to help society in general doesn't wash when elements of the society only ever wish to be the recipients and never feel they should be obliged to contribute anything.

As I said. Spending to match income.

Some elements of society fail to contribute. I'm not opposed to addressing issues like that in the area of welfare reform.
 

feargach

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Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
Is there something in the post I wrote that I missed or are you leaping to a conclusion that only you understand?
You missed the fact that there is a huge debate over Europe-wide bonds. A majority of Eurozone governments want them.

The issue you raised in your post does not apply to Eurobonds.

Where do you stand on the issue? It matters.
 

ticketyboo

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Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Messages
5,045
... you couldn't leave Ireland, or get your money out of here?

I have a strong suspicion that many of those who support this extremely dubious policy are secretly betting on being able to escape the consequences if and when it all goes pear-shaped.

In fact, I believe many actively want it to go down the tubes, and getting themselves and/or their dosh out of Ireland and into a tax haven. Then they wait for everything to collapse, then come back in with their stash, and buy up lots of things at rock-bottom prices.

Clearly, if a person has this plan, the rational thing for the country to do is the precise opposite of what he wants.

So, pro-austerity folk: would you change your demands if you had to suffer the full consequences of an Nicosia-style collapse, and you couldn't get your cash out of danger.

That means that if a post-collapse Irish government took all your savings, you couldn't escape it.
I understand this isn't the question you're really asking, but ... "would you still support austerity if"?
Say it was a household budget. You cut back on all your unnecessary spending to get rid of your debts then go forward with confidence once you don't have the millstone round your neck, and you can spend what disposable income you do have and you can stimulate the business sector who benefit from your spending.
Nationally and internationally though, that isn't how it's playing out. The more the government cut and slash, the more people get robbed of their ability to repay debts. loans, etc. More people lose their jobs, get dragged into the social welfare net, the medical card net, and more and more businesses go down because we can't buy any more what they're selling, be it pints, haircuts, kitchen extensions or cars.
Tuppence worth over.
 

feargach

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Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
As I said. Spending to match income.
You've failed to address the fact that in the modern economy, cutting spending to match income always causes income to fall, with no exception.

So it's endless: you cut spending, income falls. Income falls so you need to cut spending, spending cuts cause income to fall so you have to cut spending. Eventually you reach the pont where there's so little money you have to close hospitals, and after that you have to close everything.

The IMF and EU Commission have admitted that this is an issue. Do you think they are making it up?

Do you care if hospitals get shut down?
 
M

MrFunkyZombaloo

You've failed to address the fact that in the modern economy, cutting spending to match income always causes income to fall, with no exception.

So it's endless: you cut spending, income falls. Income falls so you need to cut spending, spending cuts cause income to fall so you have to cut spending. Eventually you reach the pont where there's so little money you have to close hospitals, and after that you have to close everything.
Latvian Government Revenue 1998-2012 (and forecasted beyond that)

The IMF and EU Commission have admitted that this is an issue. Do you think they are making it up?
No. The IMF and EU Commission are as mixed up as they ever were.

Do you care if hospitals get shut down?
Yes, of course I do.


The alternative is to increase spending and debt along with it (which is happening and yielding few results)..
 

Libero

Well-known member
Joined
May 22, 2004
Messages
3,000
... you couldn't leave Ireland, or get your money out of here?

I have a strong suspicion that many of those who support this extremely dubious policy are secretly betting on being able to escape the consequences if and when it all goes pear-shaped.

In fact, I believe many actively want it to go down the tubes, and getting themselves and/or their dosh out of Ireland and into a tax haven. Then they wait for everything to collapse, then come back in with their stash, and buy up lots of things at rock-bottom prices.

Clearly, if a person has this plan, the rational thing for the country to do is the precise opposite of what he wants.

So, pro-austerity folk: would you change your demands if you had to suffer the full consequences of an Nicosia-style collapse, and you couldn't get your cash out of danger.

That means that if a post-collapse Irish government took all your savings, you couldn't escape it.
If there's one thing dumber than a baseless conspiracy theory, it's asking the supposed conspirators to admit to their dastardly plan.
 

feargach

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 11, 2006
Messages
4,995
Nice cherry picking there. Latvia is a very unusual case in that it came into being as a debt-free nation less than 20 years ago, with all of its infrastructure in place courtesy of the USSR. They thanked the Russians by persecuting them and forcing them to learn a language overnight.

Even so, their economy collapsed 3.3% in 2008 and 17.7% in 2009. That's the equivalent of a moderate nuclear explosion going off in Dublin.

No. The IMF and EU Commission are as mixed up as they ever were.
In fact, the overwhelming majority of the world's economists now accept that slashing spending shrinks the economy, and is a vicious circle which leads to total collapse unless it is stopped. Are all of the economists also "mixed up" or is it just possible that you made a mistake?


The alternative is to increase spending and debt along with it (which is happening and yielding few results)..
We still have some functional hospitals which are healing sick people.

How is that not a result?

If we had followed the bull-headed "Cut spending to match income" blather, our income would now be zero, which coincidentally would also be the number of functional hospitals. Avoiding that awful scenario is a big result.
 
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