Wuhan coronavirus - Coming Soon?

recedite

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The Seanad provisions are a bit more definite: "There *shall* be sixty members". Would the votes/motions of a Seanad with 11 out of 60 members still unappointed actually be valid? Again, I suppose if a Seanad vote/motion was carried by a majority of more than 11 votes, then in a certain sense the 11 unnominated Senators would not matter...
It would not matter even if the majority was less than 11. The way to think about this is to ask the question; Would a normal Seanad vote be valid if 11 members were absent? The answer is Yes.
So the quorom/minimum attendance thing is a bit of a red herring. Its a vote taken among whichever members show up for the vote.

Something of more significance would be the spectacle of a newly appointed Seanad voting on some piece of legislation along with the previous Dail. Regardless of which house proposed the legislation, its still an odd situation. But again the constitution does not specifically forbid it.

The new Seanad is required to be formed within 90 days of Dail elections, therefore it could be argued that there is "an implied" 90 day deadline for the formation of a new government. We can certainly say that it was envisaged that any govt. would be formed within this time, hence the reason for the deadline (so that legislation would not be held back by some previous Seanad still hanging around)

It is obvious the FG and FF leaders are conspiring together to drag out the period of this caretaker govt, knowing that (due to the numbers) no new govt. can form without the permission of at least one of them. That is a very poor political behaviour. Only borderline unconstututional, but they should have the integrity to avoid pushing the rules to the brink.
 


recedite

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Did a quick google and, actually, here are some recent HSE guidelines to doctors: https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/ac...ratory-infection-with-sars-cov-2-covid-19.pdf
It looks like such treatments are allowed in severe cases (subject to the doctor's own judgment) and in somewhat less severe cases where they may be significant co-morbidities. These guidelines were dated the 12th March. Possibly if more evidence comes in regarding the effectiveness/safety of different treatments, the thresholds might be revised downwards.
Interesting, although it does say "Treat empirically for community acquired pneumonia as per local guidelines and consider antivirals as below".
Maybe, if going into hospital, it would be a good idea to print off the document before you go, and stick a signed copy to your forehead with "I consent to the experimental treatments" written on it. Only joking. Kinda.
 

Gin Soaked

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Two reasons come to mind:
  1. Fear: A degree of well-founded fear is not necessarily a bad thing. It may motivate the public to better observe social distancing and other precautions if they are aware that there may otherwise come a point when ICUs are no longer available.
  2. Democratic accountability/transparency: Figures should be in the public domain. This may pressure public officials to try to overcome a lack when it is still possible, e.g. the HSE has been reassuring us that they have adequate access to PPE. Coverage in the press that this may not be the case may motivate them to do their best in ensuring this will be the case (same for ICU capacity).
Yep. I'm happy with a healthy dose of fear.

Makes people cop on. Plus highlighting the assholery of coughing at people..

How such degenerates should be treated is another matter. Personally, I'd like to see stocks outside the shops, a safe distance away. And what spoiled food there is, available for pelting..

This may scar them emotionally, and possibly be anathema to our delicate sensibilities. But such are the times..
 

Finbar10

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It would not matter even if the majority was less than 11. The way to think about this is to ask the question; Would a normal Seanad vote be valid if 11 members were absent? The answer is Yes.
So the quorom/minimum attendance thing is a bit of a red herring. Its a vote taken among whichever members show up for the vote.

Something of more significance would be the spectacle of a newly appointed Seanad voting on some piece of legislation along with the previous Dail. Regardless of which house proposed the legislation, its still an odd situation. But again the constitution does not specifically forbid it.

The new Seanad is required to be formed within 90 days of Dail elections, therefore it could be argued that there is "an implied" 90 day deadline for the formation of a new government. We can certainly say that it was envisaged that any govt. would be formed within this time, hence the reason for the deadline (so that legislation would not be held back by some previous Seanad still hanging around)

It is obvious the FG and FF leaders are conspiring together to drag out the period of this caretaker govt, knowing that (due to the numbers) no new govt. can form without the permission of at least one of them. That is a very poor political behaviour. Only borderline unconstututional, but they should have the integrity to avoid pushing the rules to the brink.
To be pedantic, the constitution says a general election for the Seanad has to be held within ninety days. However, the Taoiseach's 11 nominees IIRC are never actually described as elected members. Therefore, I'm not really sure that their nomination would actually fall under the umbrella of a Seanad "general election". They are not elected (unlike the other 49 members). Hence, I'm not sure that 90 days is really a limit for nomination. Given that a Taoiseach also advises the President when to actually call the first meeting, I suppose he could hold off until he has had time to nominate these, even if past 90 days.

I also think there's a difference between absence due to members not being put in place and members voluntarily not chosing to turn up.
For example, if we held a referendum and we never opened any polling booths in Mayo, then I'd assume people would rightly call it an invalid referendum. However, if, for some strange reason, everyone in Mayo just decided to stay home for the day and not vote, well, then, apart from questions on the oddity of that occurrence, it would still be a legitimate referendum result! :)

Possibly, if the margin in the referendum was greater than the registered voting population of Mayo, then the courts might not overturn the result (not certain). Otherwise, there would certainly be doubts as to its validity.
 
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recedite

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But there will always be people with the Old Irish Inferiority Complex who cannot admit that we can look after out own affairs quite well. Not perfectly, but well enough.
Au contraire, it was Leo doffing has cap to the European Commission that led him to believe we could not deny the Italians their freedom to roam throughout the EU.
Its a sad irony that they denied it to themselves very soon afterwards. Too late for us though.
 
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jimbohane

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I would seriously question that figure and, by extension, your 'source'.
Of course you do. However its not from a 'right wing' source unless you regard a senior figure in the HSE as right wing which is a possibility of course but rest assured not so in this case. I already posted that 6 individuals involved in two of our leading horse trainers yards tested positive after Cheltenham and one of them posted this on facebook but perhaps you seriously question him as well.
 
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paulp

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recedite

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I also think there's a difference between absence due to members not being put in place and members voluntarily not chosing to turn up.
For example, if we held a referendum and never opened any polling booths in Mayo, then I'd assume people would rightly call it an invalid referendum. However, if, for some strange reason, everyone in Mayo just decide to stay home and not vote, well then, apart from questions on the oddity of that occurrence, it would still be a legitimate referendum result! :)
No analogy is perfect, but thats a bit of a stretch. You'd be denying Mayo people a vote,even though they were on the register of electors.
Whereas a Seanad that is missing a few members is still a functioning Seanad, regardless of the reason for their absence.
We even have a precedent in the caretaker Dail which is meeting nowadays with most members absent, not through the members own choice, but through the necessity of the times.
 

gijoe

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Allowing Cheltenham races to go ahead was a major disaster. I have been told by a reliable source that of our 1500 positive cases over 200 either attended this meeting or had a family member attend and that includes those in the health care sector. The problem was that at the time this virus was supposedly only dangerous to those over 65 who had underlying health problems and many of those who had flights and accommodation paid for not in this high risk group decided to take a chance . Its human nature I suppose but it has now come back to haunt them.
There is an outbreak in Tralee that is being attributed to someone returning from Cheltenham.
 

Barroso

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I apologize in advance - I have not had a chance to read and catch up on all the messages. Here is yet another total asshole of a woman in Pennsylvania who deliberately coughed on $35,000 worth of food that then had to be rubbished. If anyone else has posted it, I'm sorry I repeated it. I am horrified with some of the sick beings that we have to live with.

A bowl of fresh beluga caviar?
 

gijoe

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USA has passed out Italy, and will likely pass China today as well

The US is up ship creek. They do not really have a hospital service. They have a private service to the proportion of the population that can pay for it. When it comes to admitting people to ICU beds it will only be for those who are 'VHIpositive' or can wave a big cheque. When it takes hold among the homeless in LA and San Fran they will be bulldozing the bodies off the streets into mass graves.
 

Finbar10

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No analogy is perfect, but thats a bit of a stretch. You'd be denying Mayo people a vote,even though they were on the register of electors.
Whereas a Seanad that is missing a few members is still a functioning Seanad, regardless of the reason for their absence.
We even have a precedent in the caretaker Dail which is meeting nowadays with most members absent, not through the members own choice, but through the necessity of the times.
I suppose one could argue that the Taoiseach's power to advise the President to form the new Seanad doesn't actually distinguish whether he is a "caretaker" Taoiseach or not, which could be used to argue in a convoluted way that such a Seanad would be valid! :) Alternatively, one could argue that it means he should hold off on forming the Seanad until he or someone else has a Dáil majority and the nominees are in place and it is properly constituted. Anyway, I think this is all largely theoretical. If the Taoiseach acts as if the new Seanad is valid and laws are passed, then by the time any legal challenge comes to the courts, any Seanad delay period will have expired and the laws will be valid anyway. The courts will probably be quite accommodating. I suppose the only practical doubt is over emergency legislation where delays don't apply.
 

mangaire2

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Can we please stop whingeing please and get behind the government.
As my username suggests, I am involved in sport, I am a sports coach, my work involves being in various schools during the week and coaching outdoors on weekends.

All my work is gone, imagine that, all your work wiped out over night.
It is bloody depressing, it kills me, I will get assistance from the government but we must get behind the government, there are no easy decisions.

But spare a thought for me and others, who work in fitness and sport and who are not in regular type employment but I support the government.
aren't you the geezer who tried here a couple of days ago, to blame SF for the way the virus was being addressed north of the border ?? .
 

Barroso

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Why did you feel the need to add that last paragraph? It only serves to show that there is an attitude in Ireland of deference to betters which still prevails.

By what measure are you saying that we are doing well? Comparing us to basket cases isn't ideal.
A very good point. We have reacted earlier than Spain and Italy in several ways.
But we allowed unrestricted travel from both countries which may have in many ways negated the measures taken. We are still allowing unrestricted travel within the state. This will ensure further & quicker spread of the virus.
I have come to the conclusion that there must be an unstated policy in place to attempt herd immunity, but at a slow enough rate not to overwhelm the health service.
If correct, I feel that it may not work out as planned.
Of course this government has done some things well, but it is all over the place on its messaging about tests.
Not to forget censorship of where the cases actually are. Is Ireland the only country in Europe to do this?
Oh and I guess there are some of us on the left who have for years and years been arguing for improved investment in our public services...public medicine, childcare, etc....and we are seeing the consequences of that long term individualisation and privatisation of society...a scramble to build up those public services to cope with this.
If by some unlikely chance we get through this with a low number of deaths, I see business continuing as usual.
If however we are not exceedinly lucky in that way, FG are a dead party.
If I were Mr Martin right now, I would spin out talks on government formation until the peak of the crisis has passed, and then decide whether I want to join Leo in government or force new elections. Leo had a chance back in February to form a coalition government with FF; there was even an outside chance of a national government.

Leo rolled the dice instead.
 

mangaire2

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Apologies SIL

I over reacted towards you just not easy and thank you.
testing resources are not unlimited.
So IMO it's correct to filter the test requests, in an effort to identify the positive cases.

Wouldn't be surprised if some of the same geezers who were involved in the panic buying were the first to demand tests ?
 

JCR

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Yep. I'm happy with a healthy dose of fear.

Makes people cop on. Plus highlighting the assholery of coughing at people..

How such degenerates should be treated is another matter. Personally, I'd like to see stocks outside the shops, a safe distance away. And what spoiled food there is, available for pelting..

This may scar them emotionally, and possibly be anathema to our delicate sensibilities. But such are the times..
That not a bad idea with the stocks for the rats going around doing the coughing. Another idea would be to announce their identities will be recorded and they will be refused any sort of medical treatment as they are a danger to hospital staff. This should also apply to those taking part in online approval of these rats.
 


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