You know the GDR?

Pauli

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Catalpa, I used the term "Stasi IM's" without explaining what "IM's" were, for which I apologise. Inoffizielle Mitarbeiter (unofficial employee) was a term given to people who, when they signed up to serve the Stasi,were remunerated by the "Firm". They were often asked to spy on wives, husbands, parents and children. The IMs were the lifeblood of the Stasi, without whom the Stasi could not function as chillingly well as it did. Many marriages were shredded, many families rent asunder upon discovery that those closest to them were spying on them for money, over a period of years in many cases. The authorities in Berlin in charge of the Stasi files have been very cautious in the way they let people have access to their files on the basis that each one could have far-reaching consequences for the family of the persons concerned.

It was a bit different to a neighbourhood watch. I understand your point but the comparison is meaningless.
 


Pauli

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Also in relation to those people who left the DDR for West Germany I do remember reading that a large number went home again for various reasons.

A lot of people left family behind and found it very difficult to settle in West Germany, not being able to have contact with those they left behind.

Indeed Angela Merkel's own father was a Protestant Pastor who immigrated to the East in the early 1950's!

The East German state reached an accomadation with the Protestant Church early in the existence of the DDR to allow pastors from the west move to the east. The Protestant Church's side of the bargain was to keep completely out of politics and not to stray out of the purely religious field. This they did, even in June 1953 and it wasn't until 1989 that the Protestant Church discovered a political conscience

If the eastern State was so bad and so oppressive of the Christian Religion and a place that people wanted to get out of this would be a rather odd move to say the least!

See above

I think the vast majority who left the Bundusrepublik (?) did so to get a job on a better wage.

They mainly went to the Bundesrepublik (west Germany) It was the DDR (east Germany) that they left
 

Pauli

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Catalpa
pressed wrong button and screwed up post above (unfortunately, I'm as technical as toast) . But I think you know what I mean
 

RetiredProvo

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ergo said:
Retired provo - If the DDR was such a paradise can you explain why that states's border police the VOPOS shot and murdered East Germans trying to get over the wall into West Berlin?
First of all I never said the GDR was a paradise, far from it, it was a puppet state of the soviets where the Stasi created a state of fear and betrayal.
What I did say was that as someone who actually lived there in the late eighties it had a lot of good things, Culture, Education, Healthcare, Free or subsidised housing, etc.
Basically from the cradle to the grave the state provided for you. There were no patients on trolleys in Hospital corridors that I saw.
Maybe I should have given a bit more insight as to some of the contradictions of the state as to how I was nearly arrested when questioning the fact that in a classless state there should be a first and second class on the “ ReichsBahn “ railway system. I could go on.
Instead of pontificating from afar like other misinformed posters to this thread, I knew the GDR from personal experience instead of having to rely on cinema and books to form my opinion.
Finally to answer your question ergo The VoPos murdered their own civilians in Berlin and elsewhere as this was government policy. I didn’t agree with it. But then, I don’t agree with many things Government(s) do either.
 

felixed

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Supermanpolitician said:
For delusional nutters like retired provo, I would highly recommend watching the film "The Lives of Others".
Sponsered and made by the best friends of socialism and DDR in the whole world.

Very clear why you think of it as a good film: it confirms all your prejudices, made by the same brains (not yours, you only think to think so).
 

Pauli

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Sorry felixed, but this is a brilliant film and gives people a realistic account of how it must have been for prople who ran foul of the Stasi. I know someone who spent time in Rummelsburg and Bautzen and from what he told me, the Stasi were evil bastards. Whatever benefits the regime brought the people of the DDR, the Stasi destroyed by the fundamental inhumanity of the system they set up and the psychological abuse of the population.
 

THR

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There used to be SED-leader called Walter Ulbricht. Half of his surname, ulb, became a measurement of time just like the second, theminute or the hour. Namely, it was the time how long it took an average DDR-citizen to turn off the radio. Whenever an announcer said that now it is the time that we hear the speech by party leader Ulb...
 

corkman2007

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RetiredProvo said:
ergo said:
Retired provo - If the DDR was such a paradise can you explain why that states's border police the VOPOS shot and murdered East Germans trying to get over the wall into West Berlin?
First of all I never said the GDR was a paradise, far from it, it was a puppet state of the soviets where the Stasi created a state of fear and betrayal.
What I did say was that as someone who actually lived there in the late eighties it had a lot of good things, Culture, Education, Healthcare, Free or subsidised housing, etc.
Basically from the cradle to the grave the state provided for you. There were no patients on trolleys in Hospital corridors that I saw.
Maybe I should have given a bit more insight as to some of the contradictions of the state as to how I was nearly arrested when questioning the fact that in a classless state there should be a first and second class on the “ ReichsBahn “ railway system. I could go on.
Instead of pontificating from afar like other misinformed posters to this thread, I knew the GDR from personal experience instead of having to rely on cinema and books to form my opinion.
Finally to answer your question ergo The VoPos murdered their own civilians in Berlin and elsewhere as this was government policy. I didn’t agree with it. But then, I don’t agree with many things Government(s) do either.
And how did its public education and public health systems, public transport and public housing compare to what was available in West Germany at the same time?

Again you mention culture. Free artistic expression is vital to cultural life. How did the DDR facilitate free artistic expression?

Your personal experiences were not the norm for DDR citizens. For a start you were free to leave, they were not. You were also not required to prove your loyalty to the state and, unlike a great percentage of DDR citizens, you were probably never called upon to spy on close friends or family.

Your experiences in the DDR were like the experiences of someone who visits a prison. The experiences of the people who lived there was that of being prisoners.

Almost every state has some positive aspects. However, the negative aspects of life in the DDR far outweighed any of its positives such as public housing. In any case its public services (housing, healthcare) were only impressive when compared to Ireland in the 1980s. They were hardly impressive when compared to West Germany in the same period, which is the only valid comparison which can and should be drawn. Also you should look at the mortality figures for the DDR and look at reports of housing quality. You'll find that beneath the surface there were major problems.

People like you who praise the DDR as an impressive experiment are nothing but apologists for anti-democratic, inhumane repression. Your apologia for the DDR shows that you're not a true democrat. Having actually lived there makes it worse. It shows that you've chosen to close your eyes to the inhumanity of the system.

Perhaps the system did provide for people from the cradle to the grave. But it also infantilised people, not allowing them to make free adult choices, not allowing them to express free adult opinions. The DDR, along with ever other repressive state, treated adults like potentially unruly children. It was based on fear rather than consensus. That was its greatest failing.
 

felixed

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Pauli said:
I know someone who spent time in Rummelsburg and Bautzen ...
So what did he do to force the socialist justice to send him to prison?

You know, I myself was under surveillence by the MfS for I criticized the DDR System as I still do today. And more than that.

But I never ever had any disadvantage from that.

In the past few years after the counterrevolution I got to know some of the MfS staff and found them to be very different from all the rumours and also from all what I thought about the MfS too. They are reliable comrades, upright and consistent. To be honest, they are a part of the former staff . Many other integrated into the old capitalist system. So the wheat is sorted from the chaff. You can have them and you can keep them.
 

CookieMonster

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felixed said:
Pauli said:
I know someone who spent time in Rummelsburg and Bautzen ...
So what did he do to force the socialist justice to send him to prison?

You know, I myself was under surveillence by the MfS for I criticized the DDR System as I still do today. And more than that.

But I never ever had any disadvantage from that.

In the past few years after the counterrevolution I got to know some of the MfS staff and found them to be very different from all the rumours and also from all what I thought about the MfS too. They are reliable comrades, upright and consistent. To be honest, they are a part of the former staff . Many other integrated into the old capitalist system. So the wheat is sorted from the chaff. You can have them and you can keep them.
You know, I'd consider being put under surveillance for simply criticizing the government pretty disadvantageous, myself.
 

felixed

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CookieMonster said:
You know, I'd consider being put under surveillance for simply criticizing the government pretty disadvantageous, myself.
In the present BRD anybody is under surveillance also without being suspicious at all.

Only stupids can demand that socialist countries have to face their enemies defenceless.
 

CookieMonster

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felixed said:
CookieMonster said:
You know, I'd consider being put under surveillance for simply criticizing the government pretty disadvantageous, myself.
In the present BRD anybody is under surveillance also without being suspicious at all.

Only stupids can demand that socialist countries have to face their enemies defenceless.
But it seems, oddly enough, that more often than not the enemys of socialist countries are the citizens themselves. Obviously because they are just too stupid to know how lucky they really are.
 

THR

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Felixed!

May I inquire what pleasure do you get from silly trolling like this thread? Because you are a troll. I don´t think you live in Germany, you live somewhere in Dublin but you have this game of yours. Why?
 

felixed

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CookieMonster said:
But it seems, oddly enough, that more often than not the enemys of socialist countries are the citizens themselves.
Not THE citizens but SOME. You never heard that all murderers of humans are humans themselves? But not all humans are murderers.
 

CookieMonster

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felixed said:
CookieMonster said:
But it seems, oddly enough, that more often than not the enemys of socialist countries are the citizens themselves.
Not THE citizens but SOME. You never heard that all murderers of humans are humans themselves? But not all humans are murderers.
Yeah but murder is a defined crime. in order for it to be comitted somebody must be dead. The stasi's idea of sedition wasn't really defined at all. Simple criticisim got you put under survelance as you pointed out yourself.
 

fiannafuddy

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You mention 2.5 million "poor" in BRD these days. How many of those are living in the former(still psychologically divided) DDR Bundesländer??? I would imagine that the poverty levels had nothing whatsoever to do with the actual living conditions in DDR or BRD, but lay in the fact that if you have no rich, ther can be no poor.

In essence everyone was poor in DDR. 2 of my lecturers at college are from DDR, and while it has eveolved dramatically finally fusing with BRD, they would not go back!!

Forced working patterns, no motivation to achieve, a state where uniformity was king and indivuality was foe. If you have different view I suspect that you were probably politically active in "Die Partei, Die Partei, Die Partei"...does that propaganda sound familiar??
 

felixed

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fiannafuddy said:
In essence everyone was poor in DDR.
Rich and poor are always related to something. There are two definitions: absolute poverty at an income of less than 1 US$ a day and relative poverty below 50% of the average income of the population. In the DDR none of the criteria were fulfilled.

Do you really think you have to repeat all the lies an prejudices about socialism and the DDR? That there's someone who does't know them?
 

RetiredProvo

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corkman2007 said:
People like you who praise the DDR as an impressive experiment are nothing but apologists for anti-democratic, inhumane repression. Your apologia for the DDR shows that you're not a true democrat. Having actually lived there makes it worse. It shows that you've chosen to close your eyes to the inhumanity of the system.
So by your definition you become an apologist and cheerleader for a states policy by visiting / living in that state.
I like to visit the U.S.A. every now and again, does that make me an apologist for the Bush regime. :shock:
I made a point of visiting Cuba to get a first hand experience. I think, like the DDR there are some very good and bad aspects to Cuba’s regime also.
Instead of closing your eyes to a states inhumanity, failures, shortcomings, etc., visiting and living with the citizens of any state will always provide an eye opening experience, which books, cinema, and anti-state propaganda can never match.
 

Pauli

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felixed said:
Pauli said:
I know someone who spent time in Rummelsburg and Bautzen ...
So what did he do to force the socialist justice to send him to prison?

You know, I myself was under surveillence by the MfS for I criticized the DDR System as I still do today. And more than that.

But I never ever had any disadvantage from that.

In the past few years after the counterrevolution I got to know some of the MfS staff and found them to be very different from all the rumours and also from all what I thought about the MfS too. They are reliable comrades, upright and consistent. To be honest, they are a part of the former staff . Many other integrated into the old capitalist system. So the wheat is sorted from the chaff. You can have them and you can keep them.
Yeah, you are right. They were miserable little shits of careerists in the pay of a monsterous system. Socialist justice? Don't make me vomit!!!!

The Stasi were scum and filth and even now, anybody who spits on them is fully justified. I met 2 of these shits in Berlin and they turned my stomach with their pathetic attempts at self-justification. I needed a shower after being with them for 20 minutes. Bastards!

My friends crime? He thought for himself, one of the worst commitable crimes in the DDR gulag.
 


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